John Rose and his tithe offering at St Marys church

Many of you will know that my favourite ancestor is my 3 x great grandfather John Rose 1804-1884 of Southampton.  I recently researched and wrote a 19 page booklet about him.

My quest started when I made contact with Moira, my fourth cousin in Cornwall, who I met in Dorchester for the first time last Saturday.  Moira had sent me a news clipping from the 1930s, celebrating an event which took place in 1839 at St Marys Church, Southampton.

My ancestors would have walked through this door

In 1836 England introduced the Tithe Commutation Act which replaced the ancient system of payment of tithes in kind (for example, produce) with monetary payments.  So the issue of the fairness or otherwise of tithes was a significant issue in 1839 when this incident took place.

By 1839, John Rose had sired ten sons by his wife Isabella, and no daughters.  Only one had died in early childhood.  He named his 10th son, baptised on 9th September 1838 at St Marys Church: Guilford North Rose, after the church rector, Francis North, 6th Earl of Guilford.

The rector, Francis North was the formal rector of a number of churches in Hampshire, and was in the habit of giving an annual sermon once a year, where he collected the tithes due to him.  For the rest of the year, the church was left in the hands of a curate who was paid a lowly salary.

On the appointed day, John Rose approached the rector with his tenth son in his arms, handed him to the Earl and suggested he take the child as John Rose's tithe.  The Earl had been fussing over the babe, but upon hearing John Rose's request, promptly handed him back.

John Rose later wrote a poem, which he sold very successfully as a pamphlet.  Here it is:










A letter to the Hon. And Rev. the Earl of Guil(d)ford (sic), Wiltshire Park, Dover

I’m certain your Lordship would hardly suppose
You’d receive an Epistle in verse from JOHN ROSE
Well-known in Southampton, whiled courting the muse,
As Father of Children and Vendor of News.

Ah, hinc illoe Lachrymoe! One thing is sure.
Though in young ones I’m rich, in the pocket I’m poor.

Sad drawback it is on connubial joys
Ten bantlings to rear – and the whole of them boys,
Everyone of them hearty, my Lord, and no question
With appetites keen and unfailing digestion;
And who, as to eating, though not over-nice,
Would make a sirloin disappear in a trice.
Your feelings, my Lord, I had no wish to shock
When I offered you lately a TITHE OF MY FLOCK –
A fine chubby lad which, as flower of the crew.
Guildford North I have christened him, in honour of you.

And I fervently hope, though the last of the race,
That – much honoured name he will never disgrace.
Now, My Lord, it would make my paternal heart glad
If you’d kindly consent to provide for the lad,
And to the rich bower, where your lordship reposes,
Would transplant this fair sample, the Flower of the ROSES.

But your Lordship may say: “Now my feelings you touch,
And truly John Rose, you are asking too much.
Were I to provide for each brat that is born,
Every ROSE in the lot would be turned to a thorn,
And the whole of the wealth of the County of Hants,
Would be quite insufficient to cover their wants.

This poem and a covering story was provided to the Southern Daily Echo by Mrs Frederick (Amy) Walbridge, a daughter of Guil(d)ford North Rose 1838-1900 in the 1930s.  She well remembers her grandfather John Rose and her father having a chuckle about this story, especially when discussion of tithes arose.

When Ange and I went to look at the church yesterday and try and find the graveyard and parish workhouse, we were yet again astonished that this church was not destroyed in the 1940 blitz of Southampton.  It is surrounded by buildings dated from the 1960s, a sure sign of the extensive bombing in that area.

John Rose's father Simon Rose was buried in the churchyard in 1820, but there is no sign of any graves.

A day in Dorchester with Moira and John

Today I met another fourth cousin Moira who is also descended from John Rose of Southampton.  She and her husband John travelled from north Cornwall and we met in Dorchester, a lovely old Roman town in Dorset.  I caught the train down from Southampton, taking 70 minutes.

John and Moira

I have known Moira for about four years through our family history research, but we have never before had the chance to meet.  Some years ago, she posted me a newspaper clipping about John Rose, which sparked my interest in researching him further, resulting in my 19 page biography which I distributed to various cousins.

They picked me up at the station, and we made a beeline to an olde worlde coffee shop.  Morning tea morphed into lunch, whilst we talked about their visit to Australia a few years ago, my trip and our mutual enthusiasm for our ancestor John Rose.

We then walked around the town.  There was a good market in the street adjacent to the High Street, and it was "heaving" as they say over here.  In other words, crowded and buzzing.

The Old Tea Rooms, built 1635

There are more photos on Facebook for those interested.

Ange (who really spoils me) picked me up at the station, and then cooked a chicken supreme casserole and apple and blackberry crumble with custard.  Both Paul and I were VERY appreciative.

She's a great cook!

Poole, Highcliffe and Lymington

Joseph R. Rose's wedding 1901 - wish we knew who the other people  were.

It's now Thursday evening and I am two days behind with my blog!  I'm currently in Barnsley, in a hotel room which reminds me of one of our good motels, the first such room I've had since I left Sydney.  But this blog is still about Hampshire - and Dorset.

I first met Hannah Mack on Ancestry.com, and we've since become friends on Facebook, even though I am older than her parents.  She has a History MA, which explains why a young person is so interested in family history.  She is also a distant cousin, being a descendant of my favourite ancestor's 17th child!  I am the descendant of his 2nd child, who is 27 years older than hers.

St Michael's church where John Rose is said to have taken refuge.

Her parents live just near Poole, and they were very interested to receive a copy of my story about John Rose, and I was interested to see the photo they had of him.  They also had a very good family photo of their ancestor Joseph R. Rose who built up a stevedoring company in Southampton with 5000 employees.  It was lovely to meet them and to swap family folk-lore.  We shall prove it all one day.  They had heard that John Rose had been a gambler, and used to take refuge in the church (probably St Michael's in Southampton) whilst trying to organise a settlement of his debts.  Sounds like something he'd do.

Ange and Paul had driven me down to their village just outside Poole, so after a delightful visit with Hannah's family, we set off to have lunch at Highcliffe, which is on the south coast outside Bournemouth.  It was very wet, quite a miserable day for driving really.  But we had a delightful lunch, apart from Paul getting exceedingly wet when he found the accessible entrance to the restaurant locked.  He nearly ran over the waitress who opened the door - she did not realise she was in his way.

Lymington Harbour

The Ship Inn

Ange drove us back via Lymington, which is in the New Forest not far from Totten where they live.  It is a delightful town, famous for its sailing community.  Here are some views of the harbour and the cobbled streets.

The cobbles were no good for wheelchair users.  There was no one else around since the shops had just shut and it was very miserable with the rain.  A delightful small town though.

Southampton with Ange and Paul

My cousin Linda has met Ange at last!  They've been hearing about each other for the past four years, since John and I met them and their husbands Peter and Paul in 2008.  And in 2009 I stayed with both cousins.  Both offered to make them my base, which was lovely.

Linda and Peter drove me down to Ange and Paul's place yesterday morning on their way to Brixham in Devon where they have booked a week's holiday.  They like exploring new places.

The photo of Ange and me was taken three years ago during my last visit.  This is the resting place of my great great grandfather George Henry Rose who died in 1901.  His sister in law Hannah Moody was Ange's great great grandmother.  So we are 4th cousins, but also very best friends.  We have a great deal in common, even though Ange is 10 years younger.

Yesterday afternoon, after the obligatory visit to the tea shop for coffee and cake, Ange introduced me to the local library which is very small, but I stayed to look at their local history collection and found quite a few useful books.  Trouble is with the libraries and archives, they will be closed on Monday and Tuesday next week for the Queen's Jubilee long weekend.  Fortunately the local museums and historic houses are open on the public holidays, so we will save visiting them until next week.  Ange likes being a tourist so she will come too.

Later I wrote to the Southern Evening Echo since they have a section called Your Hampshire Heritage.  I don't know how many of you know that before I left home, I researched and wrote a 19 page story called John Rose 1805-1884: opposition town crier.  I found most of the information online on Ancestry (births deaths and marriages, baptisms) and even more important, a great deal of  information in the Hampshire Advertiser between the 1830s and 1880s.  This publication is now on line in The British Newspaper Archives .  I found information about two tragedies in the family (one a man-slaughter indictment, although resolved as a tragic accident; the other a drowning), as well as plenty of fines and at least two periods of imprisonment, one for libel.

John Rose

And would you believe?  I had a phone call this morning from the journalist who writes the Your Hampshire Heritage section, and he is most interested in my story.  I'd said to him that I was prepared to write a shorter version suitable for the paper, and he asked for a photo of John Rose, and he will send a photographer out to take a photo of me!  That may not happen until I come back down here about 15th June.

I hope the graphic designers at the Echo can improve this photo better than I could.  A very distant cousin told me the portrait was hanging on the wall at her parent's place, and kindly took a photo of it for me, the next time she went to visit the "olds".

So I'll be busy tonight crafting a shorter story, with a suitable angle.

This morning (it's still Tuesday here), Ange drove me into the Civic Centre, and we had another obligatory coffee at the SeaCity Museum, a new museum about Southampton's maritime history and in particular this year, the centenary of the Titanic disaster.  We didn't visit the museum since it is open on the weekend and the public holidays next week.

After visiting Tourist Information within the Library to find maps and a bus timetable, we found our way to the Southampton Archives.  This contains parish records and much besides.  I was disappointed to find that the reports of the Southampton Quarter Sessions - where John Rose appeared often to answer charges of assault and selling "unstamped" newspapers - were not available.  I shall have to check the newspapers in the library around the dates I want.  I could well have missed some of the reports.  I especially want to find a report of his libel case in 1839.

I did have some unexpected success though.  Whilst checking the card index of births and burials, I found that my ancestor did not have 15 natural children by his two wives.  He had 17!!!!  I and others thought that Isabella (c1807-1850) had 12 children by him.  But I found two extras - Robert and Caroline.  Both had been born and died between the 1841 and 1851 census, so there was no record of them without trawling through every Rose birth to in Southampton to check their parentage.  

John Rose had three more children by his second wife Hannah Rawlence Rose, whom he married in 1855. And she had brought a five year old son to the marriage.  Hannah died in 1871 aged just 40, even younger than her predecessor.  Both are buried with John Rose at the Southampton Old Cemetery.

I stayed at the Archives until it closed at 4.00pm and found my way home by bus, quite easy really.  

Ange is a great cook.  We had lamb shanks for dinner tonight.  My favourite!

Paul has been sunbaking for the past few days and is quite brown - he doesn't care about cancer it seems - obviously it's not as prevalent in Britain as it is in Oz.  He has a wheelchair that tilts right back like a bed (John would be jealous) and goes to sleep in the sun.

I thought you'd like to see a poem that was on an original flyer that is also on my Facebook friend and distant cousin's parents wall.  It is a flyer about a "benefit" night for John Rose at Southampton's Theatre Royal in 1860, and includes a ditty written by him.  I am still attempting to find out why he would have been given a benefit night.  Here it is: